The Noble Experiment

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Dave Gaddis was a Drug Enforcement Administration, DEA, special agent for more than 25 years,

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serving in some of the most dangerous drug enforcement regions around the world.

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From Miami to Mexico, Colombia to Nicaragua, he worked investigations against the Mexican

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and Colombian cartels responsible for supplying all of the cocaine and most of the heroin

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destined for the United States.

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Beginning as a criminal investigator in Miami's cocaine cowboys era in the 1980s, he finished

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his career in 2011 as the Chief of Global Enforcement Operations at his DEA headquarters

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office overlooking the U.S. Capitol and Washington, D.C. skyline.

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I'm Jake Jacobs, and you're listening to What The F—

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Having said all of that, Dave and I were supposed to start our recording this morning at 8

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a.m. Central, and in classic What The F— fashion, Dave sends me a text and says, can

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we delay about 30 minutes?

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My refrigerator just gave out and I'm trying to salvage some food.

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So good morning, Dave.

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How the hell are you?

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Good morning, Jake.

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It could be better, but hey, you got to play the card you're dealt, right?

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Yeah, man.

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So hopefully you're not going to lose any food.

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What happened?

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It's just the whole fridge, freezer, everything?

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Well let me tell you, I get up this morning with my wife.

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As usual, she goes over to make some coffee.

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She notices that she's stepping in water in the kitchen because the coffee maker is next

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to the refrigerator.

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So she lets me know about it, and I go over there and sure enough, there's like a lake

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sitting around in front of the refrigerator and around the refrigerator, and I realize,

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oh, WTF.

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I've got a whole situation that I got to deal with this morning.

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And a little background, I built this house a few years ago and I had custom cabinets

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made.

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So the width of the custom cabinets to which the refrigerator slides into, and it's a double

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door refrigerator, it slides into, and I mean, there isn't a piece of hair that could fit

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on the left or the right of this refrigerator when it's actually stuck in that compartment.

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So that's one of the problems.

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The second problem is I have to take the handles off the refrigerator to get it fully out so

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that I can get behind it and then unplug it before I start moving it around.

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So it's like wrestling a 500 pounds silverback gorilla to get this thing in a position to

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where you could find out what's happening.

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Well, what was happening was, and this happens with refrigerators all the time, is that the

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drain pan gets filled up because a tube gets filled with whatever, right?

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Algae, particles, sometimes it ices over because the ice maker, you know, getting it too cold.

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And that's what I had.

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So I pushed it out, got the back off of it, looked at it, saw that the pan is completely

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full.

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So after this, I'll be back at the refrigerator cleaning out the pan and trying to figure

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out what the hell I can do to get this refrigerator working.

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But yeah, it was a real mess this morning.

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It was definitely a WTF moment.

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Hopefully the refrigerator is okay and there's nothing internally wrong with it.

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Well this appliance is two years old.

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Oh.

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Imagine that.

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And I've already had to replace a dryer that's two years old because the motor failed.

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It's like, don't they make anything that's worth a crap anymore?

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I was rolling this around in my mind this, well actually last night, how I was going

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to properly introduce Dave to my audience or to this audience or whoever's listening.

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About two years ago, I fancied myself an audiobook narrator and I was going through auditions

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and I was mainly doing nonfiction type stuff and didn't really want to do anything that

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had, where I had to think about it, where I had to do dialogue and you know, stuff like

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that.

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I was doing 10, 15 auditions a day and this one particular day I was, it was at the end

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of the day.

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I had a little bit of time left.

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I could do at least one more.

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This audition pops up and it's for a book called the Noble Experiment and I pull up

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the audition script and the first thing I see is fucking dialogue.

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Like okay, you know what?

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I'm just going to, I'm just going to do it.

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And I've told Dave this before.

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I didn't give it my best.

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I mean, I did it to the best of what I could do that particular day.

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I was like, there is no way I'm going to get a call back on this.

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I don't know if it was that same night or maybe the next day.

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I got an email from ACX and they're like, yeah, the author wants to at least talk to

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you or it was something positive.

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And then I reached out to Dave and Dave was like, man, I listened to some auditions before

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you, but you nailed it.

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And I was like, are you shitting me?

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Like that was a what the fuck moment because I had no, yeah.

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Perhaps that's the key.

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Don't try too hard, right?

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Yeah.

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Cause the opening line is, Dave, I'm hit.

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I've been hit.

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Right.

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And that's exactly how I read it.

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I'll be out to this day.

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I remember how I did that.

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So the second part of that was this same time, about a year ago, I had the bright idea of

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trying to do a podcast similar to this, but it involved video.

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Right?

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So Dave and I actually filmed the pilot and we were, you know, we actually had to do it

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twice, you know, cause we're trying to figure the video part out of it.

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And then life happened.

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My daughter was in a bad car accident and things kind of got delayed.

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And then the more I thought about it, I was like, you know, Dave and I are two very handsome

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fellas, and I just don't think the world was ready for that yet and it would have created

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a paradox and you know, we would have had millions of screaming fans.

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It wouldn't have been good for either one of us.

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So audio is where it's at, at least for me right now.

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So Dave, how the hell are you?

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I would like to think that we had faces for video, but this seems to be working out much

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better, don't you think?

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So, you know, what kills me is giving a bit of history about us.

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It was just so interesting that we had actually crossed paths, perhaps not face to face, but

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when you were in service out in the carib, I certainly in around South Florida, I was

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working and hitting the Narcos in the same places at the same time.

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Yeah.

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Part of my Navy career in the late eighties, I was on a ship, the USS Ainsworth, it was

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a Knox class frigate and at least two or three times we went down to the Caribbean for drug

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and addiction ops, so we liaison with the Coast Guard and lo and behold, Dave was in

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that area at that same time.

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So it's quite possible that Dave and I crossed paths and never knew it.

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That's right.

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Doing the same thing.

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Doing the same thing.

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Yeah.

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You know, just trying to stop the supplier, let's say slow down the supply of illegal

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drugs.

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There are a lot of people out then in that theater doing these things.

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So who knows?

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We may have even complimented each other.

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We were sending a lot of Intel to DOD and the Navy was out there doing what they could

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do.

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So I just thought that was kind of interesting.

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That was.

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So other than this morning with your refrigerator, okay.

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First of all, let me just say, let's not say that word.

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Let's not say refrigerator at all.

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We can call it silverback because it's a stainless steel appliance.

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And you know, in Africa, I did some kidnap for ransom negotiations after my DEA career.

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And in Africa, there's a saying, when two elephants fight, only the grass dies.

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And I can tell you, when I wrestled this silverback today, the floor was the only thing that died.

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Well, I can imagine.

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Is it going to be safe to say that Dave might be having some lower back issues today?

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Dave is going to have a nice cocktail at about seven o'clock tonight.

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He's probably not going to stop until midnight.

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I was informed during one of our failed pilot attempts that DEA stands for drinks every

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afternoon.

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So is that still in play?

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Hey, I've heard that too.

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And more places than you can imagine.

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I was kind of nervous when I was going to talk to Dave the first time.

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I was fucking DEA agent.

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Like, this guy's going to kick my ass.

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And he's like, no, no, we drink every afternoon.

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I'm like, I like this guy.

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You know, speaking of the Caribbean, there's a, I did some duty in Georgetown, Bahamas.

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There was a little watering hole called the Two Turtles Inn in Georgetown.

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And after you're running 36 hours, 48 hours, and you know, you're in Black Hawk helicopters

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chasing aircraft, drug laden aircraft and smugglers and, you know, rolling down behind

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them and arresting them.

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And then the Bahamian strike force taking them up to Nassau to jail and processing whatsoever.

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You would eventually get to the Two Turtles Inn.

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And, but you know, you cannot drink, if you're going to be involved with aircraft the following

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day, you cannot drink a drop, a full 12 hours before you enter that aircraft and, or even

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get to the airport.

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So we would be right there at the Two Turtles Inn.

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And then when we knew we were getting up to that 12 o'clock mark, that would be a sprint.

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It's a marathon up until then.

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But then when you're an hour, an hour and a half before that 12 o'clock, it's time to

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unload man, bring out the shots.

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Now you have a long career with the DEA, plus you've had careers after that.

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So with the DEA part of your story, what was the first what the fuck you ever had, you

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know, as a DEA agent?

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Oh, man.

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I mean, there are so many.

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And many of them are strictly as a result of my stupidity, because when you're young

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and dumb, you just don't think about the next thing to do.

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I mean, it's one time I was on surveillance and I happened to be driving the surveillance

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van and this was in Miami where they have the toll booths all over the place.

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I was on the Dolphin Expressway 836.

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So the target of the surveillance goes through the toll booth.

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And of course, they're flying, man.

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I mean, that's that's how they do it.

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Right.

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It's part of their heat runs.

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Heat runs are them checking for counters.

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You know, they're they're conducting counter surveillance to see if they're being surveilled.

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So they would speed up.

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They would change six lanes in 50 yards, you know, get into that toll lane, get through

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change into another toll lane and then haul ass.

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Right.

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And I'm trying to keep up with the other surveillance vehicles, which are all, you know, Chevy Malibu's

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or BMW or whatever we had in the collection of seized vehicles.

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This particular surveillance van had one of those old timey television antennas hanging

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off the top of it, like the V's.

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You know, came out like a bird flying.

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When I went through that toll booth, I went a bit too fast and ended up hitting a bar

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that was across the toll booth.

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Had I gone probably slow and picked the right place to go through it, I would have been

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OK.

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The antenna was ripped off.

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I ended up hitting the side of one of the concrete barrier poles.

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So I ended up having to go back after that surveillance and explain to my group supervisor

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why the surveillance van had looked like it had been in a tornado.

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I think I had about a month on the job at that time.

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Fortunately, I had a great supervisor and he was able to work with me and, you know,

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I didn't take too much heat for it, although I probably had to wash his O.G.V. official

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government vehicle for about six months after that.

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Was that J.A.?

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Actually, it was J.A. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

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That's right.

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It sure was.

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Johnny Arms.

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Yeah, Johnny Arms.

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Great guy.

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Great guy.

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One of the best.

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And then there were other times when I had involved in another traffic accident.

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I was on my way.

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I mean, you love the job so much if you're showing a pattern here, Dave.

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There's a pattern.

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Good thing I don't drive silverbacks.

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But you know, I was I was driving to work one time and again had to do with a toll booth

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this time on the parkway.

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This is a real pattern now.

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Come on.

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And I was trying to look.

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This was a Monday morning, too, man.

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And I'm speeding to go to work because I am so ready for a productive week.

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We had a list of tasks and operations to do some surveillance.

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I reached down to quickly look at a report.

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You know, we didn't have cell phones back then.

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We're talking about 1986, 87.

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We didn't have cell phones, but I had a report and some notes that I needed to review.

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Of course, I thought that I could review them and drive at the same time.

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And I ended up at the toll booth that backs up traffic.

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And some guy was sitting there in my lane and boom, I rear end them.

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And totally my fault.

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That ended up being another issue with a different supervisor.

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That was a few years later.

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But yeah, there seems to be a pattern with me and O.G.V.s.

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There were others, too, that I'll fail to mention.

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But you know, when you're on surveillance, you're doing like six things at once, right?

237
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:37,300
You're driving, you're looking at your target, you're on the radio communicating with other

238
00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:39,520
surveillance agents.

239
00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,740
You're looking for other people driving that are going to cut you off inevitably and get

240
00:12:43,740 --> 00:12:46,900
up behind you and do what they need to do.

241
00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:51,060
So it's kind of a crazy experience and it develops into a skill.

242
00:12:51,060 --> 00:12:53,960
When you're young and dumb, you can have some accidents.

243
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:55,480
And many of us did.

244
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:57,040
These O.G.V.s, what were they?

245
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,280
They were a whole variety of different seized vehicles from the narcos.

246
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,040
One great thing about DEA, I don't know about currently, but back in the days when I was

247
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,360
on the street, we pretty much didn't cost the government.

248
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:13,480
We didn't cost the American taxpayer one penny because we ended up seizing so much drug proceeds

249
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:18,320
and seizing the cars that they were using and other assets that they had like houses

250
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:23,280
and campers and everything that they used to buy with drug money from their trafficking

251
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,680
activities, we were able to seize.

252
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:30,480
So we pretty much just existed on our own and our vehicle inventory was outstanding.

253
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,840
I mean, everything from a 560 SL Mercedes Benz to Buick LaSavre.

254
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:41,720
And they all matched with whatever vehicles were out in the Miami area at the time.

255
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,960
So it was kind of nice to have a free vehicle, if you will.

256
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:46,400
Were you assigned cars?

257
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:47,400
Like how did that work?

258
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,520
Well, we were permanently assigned cars.

259
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,480
And of course, the senior guys and the guys that were producing the most in terms of their

260
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,440
investigations in their cases, usually got the best cars and they should have.

261
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,640
The younger guys and the guys that were in a support role, they usually got cars that

262
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,760
were more in line with the Buicks and Chevys and Fords and things like that.

263
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:08,760
Dodge Neon.

264
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,040
Yeah, thank goodness we didn't have electric vehicles at the time.

265
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,880
I probably would have been relegated to one of them after my second accident.

266
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:20,960
The book opens literally with a bang with the chapter swords drawn.

267
00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:21,960
Tell us about that day.

268
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:27,720
Jake, that was the true bottom line, straight up WTF moment.

269
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:28,720
Yeah.

270
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:34,120
You know, when you're looking at a barrel of a gun pointed at your head and rounds are

271
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:40,040
sailing over your ears, you realize that that is the first thing you think of WTF.

272
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,720
I mean, I'm just doing my job.

273
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,320
What are they thinking?

274
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:49,680
So we ended up in a firefight in Miami Lakes, Dade County, just a small community just north

275
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:51,000
of Miami.

276
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,120
It was a drug trafficker who had come over in the 1980s in the Marial boat lift.

277
00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,400
He was Cuban and little did we know at the time, we knew he was trafficking drugs, but

278
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:05,440
we didn't know that in Cuba and after coming to the US up in New York, he had murdered

279
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:06,440
several people.

280
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,440
He was a serial killer.

281
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,920
He was a hitman for a drug organization.

282
00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:15,080
So it all came together in a few seconds and we ended up having to settle it pretty much

283
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,840
mano to mano right there.

284
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:22,400
My partner, A.D. Wright and myself and this guy in a house in the proximity of about 15

285
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:23,400
feet.

286
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,680
So I think maybe, let's see, he began shooting and he had a clip with eight rounds in it.

287
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:34,480
He had an extra clip that he wasn't able to change out and between A.D. and I, we probably

288
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,200
fired maybe about 14, 15 rounds.

289
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:39,840
So it was a quick shootout.

290
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:44,680
It was six months into the job and that was a true WTF moment.

291
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,440
Okay, I'm in it now.

292
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:47,440
This is real.

293
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:48,440
Yeah.

294
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:53,680
So of course, Dave has to pick that exact fucking moment in his book for me to audition

295
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:54,680
for.

296
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,480
So yeah, he could have picked anything, but it had to have been that.

297
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,680
With just a little dialogue, right?

298
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:01,680
Yeah, yeah.

299
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,160
No, but you did great.

300
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:05,160
You really did.

301
00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,000
You knocked it out of the park and you didn't even try.

302
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,640
So I felt like you had, I mean, you do, you truly do have a voice for radio and a face

303
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,800
for movie theaters, but you're really great on radio and I love the way it came out.

304
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,040
So if anyone's interested, they would probably get much more out of the Noble experiment

305
00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:23,520
by buying the audio version.

306
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,220
It was funny because I think one of the things that you said after we started communicating

307
00:16:27,220 --> 00:16:31,920
after you offered me the job, you were like, Jake, I listened to some auditions.

308
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:32,920
About a dozen.

309
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:33,920
Yeah.

310
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:34,920
He said, I don't know what it was.

311
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,520
There's something about, if you've ever read the book or you listen to the book, there's

312
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,640
some sarcasm here and there, just sprinkled with a little bit.

313
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,060
And I think Dave and I both are fluent in sarcasm.

314
00:16:43,060 --> 00:16:47,180
And as I was narrating it, I was sensing the sarcasm and I'm a sarcastic guy anyway.

315
00:16:47,180 --> 00:16:48,360
So that's how I was reading it.

316
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:49,360
Plus I was tired that day.

317
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,080
I wasn't really putting, so I guess all of those conditions combined.

318
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,320
At one point you said, you read my sarcasm the way I wrote it.

319
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,640
It was, I forget how you put it, but that it was something about the sarcasm that I

320
00:16:58,640 --> 00:16:59,640
got.

321
00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:00,640
And you were like, that's it.

322
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:01,640
That's, that's.

323
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:02,640
Yeah.

324
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:03,640
You picked up on the mood.

325
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,840
You picked up on the mood and the vibe of what I was trying to say, because when I wrote

326
00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,720
this book, I, I didn't write it to make money.

327
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,920
I wrote it because my children someday might want to read it.

328
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,240
And, and they already have.

329
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:15,400
I was going to ask you, have they?

330
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:16,400
They have, they have.

331
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:21,520
In fact, my daughter, she works for a, a major distribution company.

332
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:26,080
She told me that many of her coworkers ended up having it in all of their workstations.

333
00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,720
So that, that made me feel pretty good that someone, you know, 30 years younger than me

334
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,560
would actually have some interest in something I had to say.

335
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:34,840
Well the dad was a fucking hero.

336
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:35,840
So of course, yeah.

337
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:36,840
Oh, come on.

338
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,680
It really was like you said, there was a lot, there's a lot of humor embedded into this

339
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:41,680
book.

340
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,840
And the reason is, is the stories are about human nature.

341
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:50,940
And even though people do bad things, they're not always truly bad people.

342
00:17:50,940 --> 00:17:56,120
The chapter mangoes about me and Chi Chi, my informant who I had arrested.

343
00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:00,800
I got to know this guy and I felt like Chi Chi was really a nice guy that was wrapped

344
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,880
in a lot of bad, bad situations.

345
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,940
A lot of bad things going on in his life.

346
00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:08,520
So we ended up working together and had a lot of fun.

347
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:09,800
You got to be humorous, right?

348
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,680
I mean, people are funny at good times and bad times.

349
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,760
If you pick up on the comedy relief part of it.

350
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,680
Well what's cool about the way you wrote that book, Dave, is there were some chapters that,

351
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,140
you know, were just straight drama that there wasn't really a chance to inject any humor

352
00:18:24,140 --> 00:18:25,140
into it.

353
00:18:25,140 --> 00:18:28,340
So you would go through one of those chapters and then the next chapter you'd be laughing

354
00:18:28,340 --> 00:18:29,920
so hard that your stomach hurt.

355
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,600
So that's what I loved about that book.

356
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,400
You would balance the two out.

357
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,460
In Miami, I actually had an undercover assignment.

358
00:18:36,460 --> 00:18:39,040
It was a case that I was running.

359
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:45,240
It was a cocaine transportation case where we were negotiating with a Colombian group

360
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:50,420
out of the Guajira Peninsula up in Northern Colombia to provide us several hundred kilos

361
00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:51,420
of coke.

362
00:18:51,420 --> 00:18:54,520
And we were going to provide the aircraft to go down and pick it up, which we did.

363
00:18:54,520 --> 00:19:01,280
Well, that organization had a distributor named Chi Chi in Miami.

364
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,280
He was a Cuban.

365
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,280
He had worked many years with the organization.

366
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:11,440
Incidentally, that organization was headed by a former Colombian congressman who actually

367
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,120
lived in Colombia.

368
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,400
We traveled to Miami all the time.

369
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,920
So you run into all kinds of people when you're working these cases.

370
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,720
But after we arrested Chi Chi, he went on the run and we couldn't find him for several

371
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:23,720
months.

372
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:28,480
We finally tracked him down in Hialeah, a suburb of Miami and myself and Chris Feistel

373
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,320
and Alex Dominguez, A.D. Wright.

374
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,080
We just conducted weeks and weeks of surveillance until we were able to grab this guy.

375
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:39,560
And we put so much effort into it, not only to put the guy in jail and hold him accountable,

376
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,580
but to see if we could flip him because while I was undercover with him, we actually got

377
00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:44,840
to know each other quite well.

378
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,040
And we had many, many conversations.

379
00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,120
And I realized that this guy could be a guy that we could flip and convince to jump over

380
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:52,120
to our side.

381
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:53,120
And that's precisely what he did.

382
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:58,240
Of course, he was facing 25 to 30 years in prison, but that was probably the greatest

383
00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,240
motivation.

384
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:04,320
But we ended up working with us and he and I, I would take him out of prison and we would

385
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,160
run around and he would be showing me all the flop houses and the stash houses where

386
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,920
they were keeping their cocaine.

387
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:15,040
And it was dozens and dozens of places, both in Dade County, Miami area and the county

388
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,280
just north Broward County where Fort Lauderdale is at.

389
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:19,560
So we were able to do that.

390
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,080
And one day, of course, when you're in prison, you can't get the freshest fruit in the world.

391
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,080
Oh, no.

392
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,440
Sorry, Bureau of Prisons, but that's probably the case.

393
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,320
And we passed this tree, this mango tree, just a beautiful mango tree.

394
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,720
It was perfectly ready.

395
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,120
Some of the mangoes were dropping.

396
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:41,360
They were very ripe and he looked up there and he said, stop the car, stop the car in

397
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:42,360
Spanish.

398
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:43,440
I need a mango.

399
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,520
I haven't had a mango in two years.

400
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,800
And I thought to myself, should I let the guy get a mango?

401
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,280
Yeah, let's let him get a mango.

402
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,840
So we pulled over.

403
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,360
He was handcuffed in the front.

404
00:20:57,360 --> 00:21:01,600
And normally, as soon as you arrest somebody, you handcuff them in the rear of their bodies,

405
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:02,600
right?

406
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:03,600
It's more secure.

407
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,760
I developed a rapport with this individual so well, and I knew that he wasn't going to

408
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:08,840
attack me.

409
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,920
But there was always that chance that he would run, right?

410
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,360
He was still behind bars.

411
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:15,540
The ruling for reduced time hadn't come yet.

412
00:21:15,540 --> 00:21:18,880
So he really didn't know how much time he was going to have reduced off his sentence

413
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,400
for cooperating.

414
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,160
So I still had him in handcuffs.

415
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,360
Well, I went ahead, took my key out.

416
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:29,160
I unlocked one of the handcuffs and I said, okay, go get you a mango.

417
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:34,880
So I sat in the car while Chi Chi opened up and he walked out and he looked up and he

418
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:36,720
picked the perfect mango.

419
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,360
He grabbed something, another mango that had fallen and he threw it up about four or five

420
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:42,360
times.

421
00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:46,920
I was hoping that the owners of the mango tree wouldn't come out and or call the cops

422
00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:48,720
and have us locked up.

423
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,440
That would have been a what the fuck moment.

424
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:51,440
Right?

425
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:52,440
Exactly.

426
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,440
Another WTF.

427
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,280
He ended up hitting his favorite mango.

428
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:56,640
It fell to the ground.

429
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,200
He grabbed it on his way out.

430
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,160
He scraped up another overripe mango.

431
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:05,880
He came back to the car and the car door was open and he put the mangoes in his seat.

432
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,500
He stood and he looked down the back of the street in front of the street.

433
00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:14,400
And at that moment I had a feeling it's like the hairs were standing up on the back of

434
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:15,400
my neck.

435
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,400
He's going to rabbit.

436
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,720
He's going to take off.

437
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:22,740
It was that moment, that second when I truly believe that it did come through his mind

438
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:24,440
to do that.

439
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:30,160
So I just sat there and watched and then I said, Chichi, Bajacar, no corres, don't run.

440
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,960
If you do, I'm going to shoot you in the back.

441
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,040
And he just stayed there for another five seconds.

442
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,200
And then he slowly got back in the seat.

443
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,480
I handcuffed him and he enjoyed his mangoes as we went back to prison.

444
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,320
So it worked out in the end and he did a lot of great work.

445
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,500
I was very happy with his cooperation and very proud that he had decided to do the right

446
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:49,500
thing for us.

447
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:51,960
That was one of my favorite chapters in the book besides Bahama Malas.

448
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,920
During that we ended up arresting that former congressman and his son who were responsible

449
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,760
for sending tons, metric tons of cocaine up into South Florida.

450
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,480
There was one chapter in particular.

451
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:07,880
It involves climbing a ladder and lots of Cerveza being consumed.

452
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,640
I was wondering if you could share that story with us, Dave.

453
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,980
Yeah, when I was a younger agent, less senior, I was being trained.

454
00:23:15,980 --> 00:23:19,600
We didn't have official field training agents, so to speak, like they do now.

455
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:25,640
I was working with a more senior agent named Kenny Peterson, who had been on the job at

456
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,760
that time probably 15 or more years.

457
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,780
And Kenny took me under his wing and we ended up opening up a case.

458
00:23:32,780 --> 00:23:38,840
It was a heroin trafficking case based on a referral that Kenny had gotten from an old

459
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,720
Mountie from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

460
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:48,300
He was a narc investigator up in Toronto and they had been investigating a heroin trafficker

461
00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:51,580
who was bringing his dope from the Middle East.

462
00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:55,040
They couldn't really put their, they couldn't get close enough to him, right?

463
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:56,280
They couldn't put their hands on him.

464
00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:02,400
So he had called up Kenny and asked if they could pull together a scenario where Kenny

465
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:08,960
be a cocaine trafficker from Miami and maybe do a trade of some sort.

466
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,480
And that introduction was going to occur through an informant that the Mounties had.

467
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:18,000
So I ended up being involved in that and working with him in an undercover capacity.

468
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:24,120
My role was, you know, for those who can't see me and you won't see me, I'm a Scotsman,

469
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:28,200
you know, very Nordic skin colored individual with blue eyes.

470
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:33,280
I'm obviously not at all looking like a Latino drug trafficker.

471
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,960
I had an informant before who was a pilot and I had arrested him.

472
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:44,800
He ended up being a redheaded, blue eyed and light skin colored Canadian.

473
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:53,760
So I actually parlayed his experiences into what I could pretend and act like I was doing.

474
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:58,960
Used him as a brother-in-law and we ended up infiltrating the organization very effectively.

475
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:04,560
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police Narcotics Division ended up making one of the biggest

476
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:09,200
asset seizures that they'd ever made from this guy and they dismantled the entire organization.

477
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,400
So that was kind of a funny story as well.

478
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,400
The title is the Canuck.

479
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,680
The guy we were targeting was his first name was Lenny.

480
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:23,080
I remember in trial, it's the old UK system right there in Canada.

481
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,760
So you have to stand up in the witness box.

482
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:26,760
You cannot sit down.

483
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:27,760
You stand up.

484
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,760
The judge is wearing a white wig.

485
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,420
The prosecutor is wearing a white wig.

486
00:25:32,420 --> 00:25:35,880
It's like something you would expect to see in the 1800s, right?

487
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,160
So I'm up and I testified for the prosecution.

488
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:44,120
This guy Lenny, even though he was a heroin trafficker, he was one of the most polite

489
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:46,160
and most educated individuals I'd ever met.

490
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,200
He was an older man.

491
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,140
It was he and his sons that were involved in the organization.

492
00:25:50,140 --> 00:25:56,200
So once I was excused from the box, I had hammered him in terms of meeting face to face,

493
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,680
talking about the drug deals that he had done, his smuggling activities, the whole ball of

494
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,680
wax.

495
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,600
And I'm walking off the box and I'm walking out of the courtroom and I had to pass him

496
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,800
relatively close to he and his defense attorney.

497
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,200
And as I did, Lenny looked at me and he said, David, from this point forward, you're no

498
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,640
longer welcome into my house.

499
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:17,640
I can imagine.

500
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:18,640
Yeah.

501
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:19,640
Lenny was prosecuted.

502
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,520
He was convicted and he ended up in prison for many years.

503
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:30,020
And unfortunately, I was told maybe about five years after his sentence and his incarceration,

504
00:26:30,020 --> 00:26:33,000
he had died of cancer while in custody.

505
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,560
So that's unfortunate for Lenny.

506
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,560
The fact that his sons who were really the true dirtbags, they were the ones that brought

507
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:39,680
him into it.

508
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,360
But he made the decision to work with him.

509
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:46,240
So we ended up putting them away, which was the best part of the case.

510
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,920
Part of that story involves a ladder and a buffalo.

511
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:49,920
Yeah.

512
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:55,880
After we had testified, the Mounties took us over to their mess in ESS, which is a cafeteria

513
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,360
bar at RCMP headquarters.

514
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:00,940
They have a full-size buffalo head.

515
00:27:00,940 --> 00:27:08,560
This thing probably is like eight feet by 10 feet wide, about 15 feet up in the air

516
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,040
on the wall over the door of the mess.

517
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:16,280
I was informed that to be totally accepted, they appreciated the work I did, but to be

518
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:21,360
accepted by the RCMP that I would have to climb up a ladder and kiss the buffalo.

519
00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:30,360
So after about 30 Molson's and blue bats or Blatz Blue or whatever it's called, they ended

520
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:35,720
up finding a ladder and by golly, I crawled up the ladder and I kissed the buffalo.

521
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,040
I thought I was going to die because you're 15 feet up in the, 18 feet up in the air and

522
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,560
these drunks are holding the ladder.

523
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,400
If they'd have left the ladder alone, I would have been more safe.

524
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,960
I ended up kissing the buffalo and everyone was happy.

525
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,560
The way that you wrote that chapter, parts of it were dead serious.

526
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,060
Then at the end, you brought in the comic relief part.

527
00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:56,960
The way that you were describing the whole ladder scene, there was a couple of outtakes.

528
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,120
I wish I had saved some of that stuff because I was laughing my ass off.

529
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:03,240
I had to like stop and redo some of the lines because I was just fucking laughing.

530
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:04,640
It was like laugh out loud shit.

531
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:05,640
That's how funny this book is.

532
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:06,640
Thank you.

533
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:07,960
And that's how it was intended to be.

534
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,800
I wanted anyone who picked up the book to first of all be entertained and second of

535
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:20,120
all understand that it's not all work and danger and there's a level of humor and entertainment

536
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,920
to any job, but particularly in the DEA.

537
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:28,040
I wanted to say a young person, male or female, who was interested in law enforcement to read

538
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,520
some of this and see how fun the job and the career really was.

539
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:33,760
We worked hard and we played hard.

540
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:34,840
Some guys didn't drink.

541
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:40,400
Some agents, they would find their relief in other ways, whether it was sports or music

542
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,360
or gaming or whatever they did.

543
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:48,480
But I decided to talk a little bit about some of those experiences.

544
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:52,960
There was one particular moment in the book that was really drama filled and it was a

545
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,560
stressful situation doing something undercover and you were being told to partake.

546
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,880
Just the way that you wrote that scene and the way that you overcame that situation.

547
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,260
Blue Mountains, that was our UC in Jamaica.

548
00:29:05,260 --> 00:29:09,120
That was a case where we were in Jamaica in Kingston.

549
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:14,540
We were meeting with cocaine traffickers who took us up to a stash house that they had

550
00:29:14,540 --> 00:29:17,600
in the Blue Mountains where marijuana was cultivated.

551
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,240
This guy's name was Dreddy.

552
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,000
He took us up, told us to go inside the house.

553
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,000
He would meet us later.

554
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,760
And what we didn't realize is the intention, the true intention by Dreddy was to get us

555
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:32,120
up in this house and it was more than like a staging house.

556
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,960
It looked like it had been a torture house.

557
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:35,960
We got in there.

558
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:41,120
There was only a sofa and a couple of wooden chairs, maybe a fold out chair or two.

559
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,280
No other furniture.

560
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,120
There were bars on all the windows and the doors.

561
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,160
There was no way to get out once we were in.

562
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,180
We were supposed to meet this trafficker, but when we went inside, we realized we were

563
00:29:51,180 --> 00:29:55,880
meeting just four strangers who we never met and they were all sitting in a circle smoking

564
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:56,880
crack.

565
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:03,780
So we were being tested as alleged drug traffickers and transporters from Miami.

566
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:08,840
And he was going to find out whether or not we were real or we were narco agents.

567
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:14,320
As we were in there and we were talking to these guys, they locked the doors behind us

568
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:15,900
and we were stuck in that place.

569
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,320
And they said, well, let's go ahead and smoke a rock.

570
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:24,360
I had a pentasonic recorder in a shirt pocket that was hidden in a pack of cigarettes.

571
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:30,640
I ended up just basically pulling out a cigarette carefully that I still had in the pack and

572
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,320
told them I was fine.

573
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:33,360
That's all I do.

574
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,000
And he said, no, no, no, no, you don't understand.

575
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,680
Dread E wants you to smoke one of these.

576
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:44,600
I said, all right, I guess if I have to, I have to before I do go get a hammer.

577
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,440
And he goes, a hammer, what you need a hammer for?

578
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,640
And I said, well, I'm going to smoke the rock and then I'm going to take that hammer and

579
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,260
knock you upside the damn head.

580
00:30:53,260 --> 00:30:57,260
So we both have the same headache because I'm a recovering drug addict and I cannot

581
00:30:57,260 --> 00:30:58,260
do that.

582
00:30:58,260 --> 00:30:59,320
So let's do that.

583
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:00,600
I'll hit you in the damn head.

584
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,260
And he looked at me with his bloodshot eyes.

585
00:31:03,260 --> 00:31:08,300
The other three guys looked at me, you know, they had their pistol stuck in their waistband.

586
00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:11,600
One guy had a machete that he was just handling in his lap.

587
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:12,600
Oh God.

588
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,100
I thought, okay, this is it.

589
00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:15,920
This is where, you know, this is how it ends.

590
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:16,920
Yeah.

591
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,860
We're going mano a mano to get, you know, and we probably won't win, Chris.

592
00:31:20,860 --> 00:31:25,980
And the guy looks at me with his bloodshot eyes and then all of a sudden he just maniacally

593
00:31:25,980 --> 00:31:26,980
laughs.

594
00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:28,680
He just thought it was the funniest thing in the world.

595
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,320
And the other guys caught on and began to laugh.

596
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:37,260
And I shook my head, lit the cigarette, took a couple of drags and we just kept talking.

597
00:31:37,260 --> 00:31:40,400
You see, Dave, even hardcore criminals find you funny.

598
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,520
You should be a fucking standup comic.

599
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,680
I guess when you're pressured with death, you might come up with some idea of what to

600
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,680
say that's funny.

601
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,280
But yeah, it's called comedic relief because they were probably a little on edge themselves,

602
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,280
right?

603
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:55,280
Oh, I'm sure.

604
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,240
Never having met us, didn't know whether we were wired or whatnot.

605
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:03,360
And the reason I had the Panasonic was because if I had wore a wire, they could have had

606
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,560
an RF detector and they would know that the frequencies were working and they could have

607
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,760
detected that we were bugged and we didn't want that.

608
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,720
And I'm very glad that we didn't do that.

609
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,280
Turns out we got out alive.

610
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:22,840
We ended up, I'm sorry to say, drink another probably case of Red Stripe and got out and

611
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,080
made the deal happen.

612
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:29,000
So that Panasonic recorder may have captured you saying, do you have a hammer?

613
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,000
Exactly.

614
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,000
Oh, it did.

615
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:32,000
It did.

616
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,000
It captured every word.

617
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,000
Yeah.

618
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,920
And then during that time, another one of the guys also bloodshot eyes, he reached over,

619
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:40,960
he wanted a cigarette.

620
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,320
So he reached over and he grabbed my pocket.

621
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:44,320
Yeah.

622
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,840
And when he did, I put my hand, I slapped my hand up against him, against my shoulder.

623
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:48,960
And I said, what are you doing?

624
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,440
He says, I want a smoke, man.

625
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,500
And I said, hey, look, I'll give you one.

626
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:59,880
So I reached in and I had one left and I pulled it out and I held it up and I said, this is

627
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,180
my last one.

628
00:33:01,180 --> 00:33:02,240
You're a lucky man.

629
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,920
And I gave it to him and he was happy.

630
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,880
And it wasn't long after that we left.

631
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,840
What is or was the DEA's policy on something like that happening?

632
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:10,840
Had you been forced?

633
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,520
If you had no other choice but to do that, what would happen to you at that point?

634
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:15,920
Oh, it's quite simple, man.

635
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,040
It's like a stop sign, right?

636
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,240
There's no yellow.

637
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,500
It's not a stop light.

638
00:33:20,500 --> 00:33:22,260
It's a stop sign in policy.

639
00:33:22,260 --> 00:33:23,260
You never do it.

640
00:33:23,260 --> 00:33:27,340
However, if someone had a gun to your head on a human level, you're going to do what

641
00:33:27,340 --> 00:33:28,520
you have to do to survive.

642
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:29,520
Oh yeah.

643
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,420
And I don't think there would be any ramifications to that.

644
00:33:32,420 --> 00:33:36,120
It would be unfortunate all the way around, but no, I don't think you would be punished

645
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,080
for doing something to save your own life.

646
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:39,840
It's self-defense at that point.

647
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,240
Yeah, but the stop sign says don't do it.

648
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:43,240
That's the policy.

649
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:44,240
You do not do it.

650
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,440
You can't give somebody just a crack.

651
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,800
And if you did, there would be all kinds of excuses as to why people took drugs.

652
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,880
And unfortunately, there have been cases where DEA agents became drug addicts.

653
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,720
We had an agent up in New York who had track marks on his arms.

654
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,960
In the summer, he would wear long sleeve shirts.

655
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,940
Eventually it came out that the guy was a heroin addict.

656
00:34:08,940 --> 00:34:14,520
And that started when he was operating with a particular informant that was a heroin addict.

657
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,360
For some reason, he thought it was a good idea to try it.

658
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:23,200
Maybe they'd get closer to the organization, but no, you can't do that.

659
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,520
He's no longer in employment with the government.

660
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,600
I can imagine for some people with addictive personalities that when you have a job with

661
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,800
that much responsibility on your shoulders, that's the wrong line of work to be in because

662
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,360
it would just be way too tempting.

663
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,360
Oh, absolutely.

664
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:43,240
I mean, in training, they'll light some good, rich, seized weed and then you will get a

665
00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:45,520
smell of it, an odor of it.

666
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:51,320
You're not smoking it, but you have to familiarize yourself with what this kind of weed smells

667
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,240
like, what another kind of weed smells like.

668
00:34:53,240 --> 00:34:54,240
It's all part of the training.

669
00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:57,120
And of course, the real training happens when you get out on the street.

670
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,720
I remember one time in Miami, in Miami Beach, we were called to meet somebody.

671
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:07,040
Myself and Kenny Peterson, we went out, met with the informant, which was maybe a 40-ish,

672
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,600
40-something year old female, Colombian national.

673
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,080
And she surprised us with a gram of coke.

674
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,200
She says, hey, I just got this and it's really good.

675
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,480
I just tried it.

676
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,640
It's awesome.

677
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:19,640
Go get it checked out.

678
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,320
And we were like, good grief.

679
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,360
Now we have to open up an actual file because we have drugs to register.

680
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,920
It was like the last thing that we wanted to do on a Friday afternoon, three hours of

681
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:30,920
paperwork.

682
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:31,920
What are you going to do?

683
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,520
We took the gram, we took it back, we processed it.

684
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,080
And they throw you curve balls, these informants, they throw you curve balls all the time.

685
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,560
You talk about addictive personalities.

686
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:50,840
And I think that is such an important point to remember why our country is in the position

687
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,520
that it is.

688
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:59,320
Forgive me for changing directions, but if you look at the drug abuse levels pretty much

689
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:06,160
across our nation, reflected by the number of overdoses that have occurred in recent

690
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:13,000
years because of this fentanyl component that has been added to the drug consumption equation.

691
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:20,560
How many people in the USA are overdosing and many dying every year from fentanyl overdose?

692
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,480
Even though they didn't even realize that they were ingesting fentanyl.

693
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:29,280
They thought they were ingesting Adderall or Percocet or some kind of relief agent.

694
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,520
That looked like a Skittles candy.

695
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:37,000
I think it's over a hundred thousand a year that we've been consistently losing over the

696
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,640
past three or four years.

697
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,840
That's an entire generation.

698
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,200
So I think the addiction personality does play a role in that.

699
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:51,140
And it's something that we as a society and certainly reflective in our government need

700
00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:58,680
to closely closely examine and maybe create some kind of mental health organization specific

701
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,120
to the reduction of drugs in our country because it's just off the hook.

702
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,640
It's way, way too serious and it's killing an entire generation of our own society in

703
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:09,640
America.

704
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:10,640
You know, we can't let that last.

705
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,320
We have to find a way to stop it.

706
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,800
And this is not to mention the family members loss, right?

707
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,400
So if you've got a 16 year old who thinks he's taking Adderall to study a little bit

708
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,200
harder and get good grades and please his parents and his teachers, and then he dies,

709
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,160
we've got the parents, the extended family members, the brother, the sister, you know,

710
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,040
the teachers, the people who love this young person.

711
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:34,520
And it's happening way too often.

712
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:38,360
So how, you know, that's a WTF issue.

713
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:44,280
How are we letting our society kill itself in droves like that in hundreds of thousands

714
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:45,280
of people.

715
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,480
And we have to come up with a national drug abuse strategy.

716
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,400
Forget national drug control strategy because we have that in place now, but we have no

717
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:58,360
national drug abuse strategy that needs to be talked about and readily put into place

718
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,480
because we need to start saving these lives, man.

719
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:06,480
I would say one of our most serious Achilles heel in this country is drug abuse.

720
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:12,560
And I'm not talking about somebody who may light a joint once a week, you know, on a

721
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,140
Friday evening.

722
00:38:14,140 --> 00:38:18,200
And I said in the book, the Noble Experiment, I don't think it's a federal issue simply

723
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,520
because we don't have the time to deal with it.

724
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:22,480
We have fatter fish to fry.

725
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,320
That's not what we're talking about here.

726
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,240
We're talking about the fentanyl poison that's infecting our entire society.

727
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:31,720
I do feel that the state should be in charge of it.

728
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:34,800
I mean, let the states decide what the states want to do.

729
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,640
And if they want to enforce cannabis laws, let them enforce cannabis laws.

730
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,020
It's their state to manage.

731
00:38:41,020 --> 00:38:43,280
For those that don't, let them do what they want to do.

732
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,320
If there's middle ground, medicinal purposes, things like that, then that's fine too.

733
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,760
But I just don't think it's a federal issue any longer.

734
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,160
We have too many serious issues that we have to deal with.

735
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,440
You know, the abuse of pharmaceutical drugs is off the hook and has been for many years.

736
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:08,040
At one point, I would say around 2006, 2007, Vicodin was the number one abused drugs in

737
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,040
the USA.

738
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,040
I remember that.

739
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,040
Yeah.

740
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,040
WTF.

741
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,040
There's a purpose for it, a medical purpose is what causes people who feel they're so

742
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:21,500
stressed out to crush it up, oxycodone, oxycotton, same thing, right, and have this intense high

743
00:39:21,500 --> 00:39:25,720
effect and euphoric effect as opposed to, you know, drinking a couple of beers, you

744
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:28,200
know, or doing whatever else they wanted to do.

745
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,920
It's just, it's a WTF for me.

746
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,720
I wish we could figure out and we can, but it's going to take a generation or two.

747
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,720
Look, when's the last time you were in your car?

748
00:39:37,720 --> 00:39:38,720
Less than 12 hours ago.

749
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:39,720
Did you put your seatbelt on?

750
00:39:39,720 --> 00:39:40,720
I did.

751
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:42,360
I always put my seatbelt on too.

752
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,000
You know, your father and grandfather never put a seatbelt on even when they had them.

753
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,200
It wasn't in the, in the mentality.

754
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:49,240
You didn't need it.

755
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,040
You didn't think it was important.

756
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,840
So you just didn't take the second to wrap it around you.

757
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:55,840
Right.

758
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,780
And even when I was younger, I mean, I'm 63.

759
00:39:57,780 --> 00:40:00,840
So when I first started driving, I didn't use a seatbelt.

760
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,720
I was told I needed to, but I didn't use it.

761
00:40:03,720 --> 00:40:05,480
Now everybody uses a seatbelt.

762
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:06,620
Why do you use a seatbelt?

763
00:40:06,620 --> 00:40:11,080
Because you know that eventually there's a chance something bad could happen and that

764
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,640
seatbelt might keep you a little safer.

765
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:14,640
Right.

766
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:20,840
So we need to change that whole mentality about the need for diverted pharmaceutical

767
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:26,040
drugs or just using out and out, you know, hardcore legal drugs like methamphetamine,

768
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,600
cocaine, heroin, the array of other drugs like that.

769
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:34,720
It's something that I hope we can change because people are dying every day and that's sad.

770
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:37,240
It's something that we will definitely have to change.

771
00:40:37,240 --> 00:40:43,360
And I hope we can fortify and create, develop some kind of robust system that addresses

772
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,320
addiction, and addresses the cause of addiction.

773
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,800
And I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, the daily stresses that people involve

774
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,160
themselves into.

775
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,600
And if they can just figure out ways to deal with it other than taking a chance, rolling

776
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,000
the dice and popping a pill that they know nothing about or its origin or where it came

777
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,800
from, we could go a long way.

778
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,640
To follow up with such a serious subject like that, you mentioned a few moments ago about

779
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:08,640
wearing a seatbelt.

780
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,340
Part of the reason that I do it, if I don't do it, my car has a fucking idiot alarm that

781
00:41:12,340 --> 00:41:15,240
will go off until I put the motherfucker on.

782
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:17,080
That's a what the fuck.

783
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,760
And I bet you, I bet the WTF comes in your mind every time you hear that whistle or that

784
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:23,760
bell, right?

785
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,000
I'll put them, oh, all right, just to get it to shut up.

786
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,120
No, that's great.

787
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,220
That's a beautiful, beautiful send off.

788
00:41:32,220 --> 00:41:33,880
And I appreciate again, very much.

789
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,680
I appreciate the time to talk to you.

790
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:36,760
I love catching up.

791
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:37,920
We only need to do this.

792
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,360
It doesn't have to be a podcast.

793
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,960
It could just be talking and catching up someday, man.

794
00:41:42,960 --> 00:42:09,960
I'm proud of you and I'm happy that things are going well for you.